Most of our feedback and responses may be found in our site comments pages (Favorable & Unfavorable). Occasionally, however, we get into extended discussions with a reader where the format of these pages makes it difficult to display all of the responses. Our discussion with "Jordan Red" (redflag2@flash.net) is an example of this.Even though we don't agree with most of what Jordan states (notable exception being "Moses was a loser"), we appreciate hearing his point of view - as we do with anyone writing us.
[We're also in a dilemma regarding misspelled words in emails to us. Do we correct them? Do we leave the writers words alone? We've decided to do the later, but feel compelled to place "[sic]" following misspelled words. We don't intend to make the writer look bad, but we don't want to publish misspelled words... if we can help it - We are occasionally guilty of this ourselves!]
Jordan
redflag2@flash.net
Monday, October 28, 2002 11:13 PMAtheist or Religious? Religious
I can see that you are an intellectual. However, you are limiting the biblical God- God has a divine plan that many times we can not understand. Think, for instance, what might have happened had September 11th not occured [sic]. Most likely there would be no war against terror. Terrorist groups around the world might have had time to grow stronger until they would be powerful enough to inflict something far worse than Sept 11th. (i.e. Saddam and his nucleur [sic] weapons) But thats [sic] not how it is! Today the most powerful democratic nation in the world with the most powerful military is pursuing terrorists. Except for the prophecies he gives us, we know nothing about God's divine plan, but must believe that all things work together for good. You must realize that the Bible is historically inerrant and you can not prove it otherwise. No archeological, scientific, or historical finding ever recovered has contradicted the Bible, and there is plenty of evidence to the accuracy of all the events recorded in it. I would like to see any sort of solid proof you have that Christ, the Son of God, did not live, perform miracles, die, and ressurect [sic]. There is plenty of evidence that He did!! His birth alone fufilled [sic] hundreds of specific prophecies that were written about him several hundred years before he was born! In addition, His twelve disciples, who claimed to see Christ ascend into the heavens, were so affected by the experience that all twelve of them were martyred (many tortured) because and never recanted their beliefs. Why would anyone die for a lie? If you read Josh McDowell's book "New Evidence That Demands A Verdict", you will see how much evidence there is. Simply because you can not see God doesn't mean He isn't there. Millions of people around the world have had their lives completely transformed through God and His word. Finally, the most important thing I can tell you is that if you were the only person in the world, Christ still would have died for your sins. He is quite alive and still loves you, even though you won't accept it. Jesus, who loves you, is offering you eternal life- don't reject the greatest gift ever offered.
Response from the Ethical Atheist: If you believe that there are no "archeological, scientific, or historical findings" to contradict the Bible, we cannot help you. You are ignoring the facts, plain and simple. If God wants us to believe in him and he presented himself in the past, why doesn't he do it now? An omnipresent God could duplicate himself a billion times over and have a personal conversation with everyone on Earth... but he doesn't... why I ask you? You want evidence of lies in the Bible? Look into the firmament of the heavens... or Moses as a loving man... or Jonah and the whale... or an earth-centric universe... or dinosaurs living with humans... or the geological record of earth (not 8,000 years old)... or man created from dust vs. evolving from prior species... or males with one less rib than females... or prophecies unfulfilled unless you believe in Nostradamus... or archeological evidence proving that humans not only existed, but wondered the continents long before the Bible says Earth was created....The reason September 11th occurred is because mankind cannot evolve past superstitious beliefs in Gods whether they be Jewish, Muslim, Mormon, Greek, Indian, Baptist, Methodists, New Adventist, Buddhist, Quaker, Catholic, "personal", etc., etc., etc.
You have been brainwashed by your religion and the best that we can hope for you is that you get well someday.
Response from:
Jordan
redflag2@flash.net
Thursday, October 31, 2002 4:11 PM[Note: In places, Jordan refers to our previous response. These are in blue and our responses to his statements are again in red.]
Thanks for your reply! I really appreciate a rational conversation with an atheist or evolutionist. First off, I would like to say that the one thing which intrigued me in your reply is your comment that humanity "cannot evolve past" superstitious beliefs in God, etc. You are absolutely right!! From an evolutionist standpoint, one has to wonder why we haven't been able to get over this. Why is there an inherent need among people for something
spiritual - a sort of unsatisfied hunger for a higher power? Yet we have not been able to overcome this weakness. As an intelligent and rational evolutionist, you certainly should be able to have a solid explanation, right?Response from E.A.: Unfortunately, we don't have a good answer for this and it continues to baffles us. To us, and many other atheists and agnostics, all the evidence proves that religion is a fabrication designed by humans. We've often pondered if it is simply an easy way out for parents who are unwilling to tell their children the truth about dying. Isn't it easier to say, "Well, they aren't really dead. They've gone to a wonderful place and you will see them again someday." Let's be clear on one thing though: We aren't saying that evolution is perfect. It's an adaptation mechanism that sometimes produces good traits and sometimes bad. There are many examples of creatures that have evolved in a way that turned out to be a mistake for their environment. They are now extinct because their adaptation didn't work out. Other creatures went extinct due to circumstances beyond their control (eg. comets, asteroids, extreme environmental change). The fact that humans have relied on religion and superstition for so long (a million years?) is notable. The fact, as you say, that we "cannot evolve past" this appears to us to be indicative of man's need to feel that he is important in the Universe. Or, is it that he wants to feel that he understands the Universe. To us, there are two paths that man follows in this pursuit. One is the religious path - one that provides all the answers for you. The other is the path of the rationalist, scientist and atheist. This path has seen the flaws in the answers provided for us by religion and seeks to find true, testable answers. This discussion will be referred to later in our response... You see, people who believe in religion find ways to twist their minds and logic so as to be able to continue to believe in the answers in the Bible (or whatever book you happen to be going by at the time.) As we've stated on other pages at the Ethical Atheist, we feel this is a dangerous condition. When applied to other areas of life, as religious people often do, it is hazardous. We have plenty of examples of this in politics, where people who direct our government and how our tax dollars are spent are wrongly influenced by religion and refuse to see the facts."If God wants us to believe in him and he presented himself in the past, why doesn't he do it now? An omnipresent God could duplicate himself a billion times over and have a personal conversation with everyone on Earth... but he doesn't... why I ask you?"-taking into account that what we are debating involves Christian doctrine, which teaches the Trinity: the Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit. Jesus, the Son, says in the gospel- "I and the Father are One." Jesus then gave the world God's Holy Spirit at the end of his ministry. All of them are equal because they are all God- simply different functions.
-taking into account the Christian belief that states there is "sin"-lying, cheating, adultery, etc. [Response from E.A. Don't forget murder, rape, child abuse, child molestation, etc. - these sins too are present in Christians and non-Christians...]
Now then, that would be your question! This obviously is the foundation of an atheist's beliefs (or lack of beliefs) and Darwin's motivation to create his "Origin of The Species". The Bible teaches us that God is so incredibly powerful, so incredibly majestic, and so holy that for a sinner to look at His face would mean instant death. Thus, by Him not allowing us to see Him, the biblical God is actually being merciful. Adam walked in the garden with God, you say? Well, Adam was sinless until the "fall"! Moses saw an angel of the Lord, but not God. Christ, who is God, apperaed [sic] to Paul on the road to Damascus, but Christ came in a human form and was seen by many. No one has ever seen God the Father in his glory. Of course, we are taught that Christians will be able to look upon His face, (when our physical bodies die and our spirits go to heaven) because we have been made pure- because Christ has taken away our sins.
Response from E.A.: Which verse is this that says that we would suffer "instant death" if we saw God? And, if God is so incredibly powerful, and he wants us to believe in him, why couldn't he change this? Why couldn't he decide to just suffer "instant humiliation" or something? If God is so "merciful", wouldn't this be better than "instant death"? We're sure that you would agree with us that he could, in fact, change this phenomenon of "instant death". Why doesn't he do so? This argument for why he doesn't present himself to us falls flat in our opinion. Also, poor Adam! If, as the Bible states, he was the very first human created... God, must really feel like a failure at creating humans. The very first guy didn't have the ability to do what God intended. He 'sinned' and fell from God's grace. Maybe after that, God just gave up on our little planet and went on to try building a wonderful place on one of the other planets in the Universe?... And what of Paul on the road to Damascus? If he saw Christ, even in a human form, and so did many others, why did they not all die an "instant death"? Even though he was in a human form, wasn't he still God and still "incredibly majestic and holy"? Or, did God will-away all of his holiness so as not to make all these people die instantly?As for a personal, audible, conversation with God, (past the time of Jesus) it has not happened. First of all, let's suppose for a minute that God does what you suggested. God goes to every person in the world, and at the same time, a great voice booms down from heaven and says, "alright [sic], alright, so and so, here I am. Yeah, yeah, okay, I know you're shocked. You had better stop all this drinking, drugs, and hitting your wife and kids stuff or else." Sure, that would make things a lot easier. But if God did this He would be contradicting Himself. [Not like he hasn't done it before.] The Bible says that Christ is going to return like a "thief in the night", when no one expects it. The Book of Revelation is full of prophecies about what is going to happen in the end times. It is quite exciting to see how these prophecies are coming true. But for God to reveal Himself in that way would require no faith out of any of us, which is what he wants us to have.Response from E.A.: Just so we get this straight: (A) God wants us to have faith, yet he didn't give it to us. Why is that? (B) God did give us logic and reason and we use it everyday. This is why we don't believe in God. (C) Did God make another mistake? Shouldn't he have given us faith and not logic and reason? Why would he give us something to disprove him? Is this that free-will thing again?! Regarding "prophecies", forgive us if we're not convinced. We keep hearing about these as have many generations. Yet, they never come true. Please, tell us of some that you claim are "coming true".This probably will mean nothing to you, because you have not experienced it, but I must say this because it happens. God reveals himself spiritually
all the time. He yearns for a relationship with us. Millions of Christians all over the world have experienced what we call "movement of the Spirit." This is the actual presence of God being felt by a person, and it happens often when Christians are together- a very "warm fuzzy" feeling that can not be produced naturally by a person. God also shows himself through answered prayer requests. I could tell you so many times when I have lost something,
something important is coming up, or I have an urgent need and God answers my request. Right there. On the spot. Boom.Response from E.A.: You should not say that this means nothing to us. Most of us, atheist, religious and agnostic, all understand this "warm fuzzy" feeling. It comes from being among others that share a similar belief or understanding. It is not supernatural. It is common in gatherings of like people. It is a comfort resulting from being among others like yourself. It happens among believers and non-believers alike and is entirely human. We've felt this "warm fuzzy" feeling in fossil quarries just by being among other that share a love for the same thing we do. We've also felt it by doing a "good deed": by contributing to a charity or by helping a friend in need. Regarding God answering through 'prayer requests'... If God is omniscient, why do you even need to pray? Doesn't he already know what you want? If he's all-knowing, is he just wanting you to beg? And, does more people praying for the same thing somehow get his attention? Doesn't he listen to every prayer? Why do religious people always solicit the prayer requests of others? Is he too busy? Does he only hear the loud voice of many people? Regarding your personal prayers, could it not be that if you concentrate on something you lost (i.e. pray) that you might remember where it is?"You want evidence of lies in the Bible? Look into the firmament of the heavens... or Moses as a loving man... or Jonah and the whale... or an earth-centric universe...or dinosaurs living with humans... or the geological record of earth (not 8,000 years old)... or man created from dust vs. evolving from prior species... or males with one less rib than females... or prophecies unfulfilled unless you believe in Nostradamus... or archeological evidence proving that humans not only existed, but wondered the continents long before the Bible says Earth was created...."One important issue which needs to be addressed is the issue of dating methods. Evolutionists' dating methods are so sickeningly unreliable it makes me nauseated to think of people accepting tv programs or articles which say the earth is billions of years old. Keep in mind that for Evolution to have "worked" the earth *must* be billions of years old. Here is a remarkable example of what we are talking about: All the dating methods used by Evolutionists were applied to the moon rocks. The result: dates varying from 2 million to 28 billion years! Other more reliable non-radioactive methods showed them only to be only a few thousand years old. Visit http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/05agee2.htm for much, much more scientific evidence of a young earth. One of the main reasons the site gives is stars. For the amount of energy and radiation the stars in our universe give off, there is no way they could have lasted billions or millions of years!!
Response from E.A.: This is an area that we refuse to address. If you refuse to accept the evidence in dating methods, there is nothing that we can say to change your mind. Sure, the dating methods are always changing and always getting better. That is not a flaw as you suggest. It is one of the benefits of science. We do not attempt to set something into stone by someone's writings from thousands of years ago. We accept new evidence... not only 'accept' it, but we welcome it. We are always ready to learn more and learn something new. This is exactly the opposite of religious teachings which are completely closed-minded to new discoveries of science. We choose to live in our world on continual learning. You choose to live in your world of... refusal to change and refusal to accept the facts.You have to understand that if a supernatural God created this world, he would be perfectly capable of intervening in various situations and doing things supernatural in the world. [Response from E.A.: No, we don't share that understanding.]"Firmament of the heavens" - don't know what you are talking about, you'll have to be more specific. [Response from E.A.: Please refer to "Religion, Science and the Truth" for the section on the firmament.]
"Moses as a Loving Man" - Show me the verse. There is nowhere in the Bible that says Moses was a loving man. In fact, he even murdered an Egyptian. He was a loser, and that is why it is so amazing that God used him to deliver the Hebrews. There are many foolish people in the Bible who God uses for good. Get over it.
Response from E.A.: Here we must congratulate you. We've heard many explanations of Moses and his deeds, but we've never heard a religious person call him "a loser". That's great!!! But, he murdered many, many people, not just an Egyptian. Why did you point out an Egyptian? The Israelis murdered many Egyptians. Are they all losers too? Back to Moses: He was DIRECTED by God to kill all the people in those cities. He used this authority from God to murder most of the townspeople; to keep some women for the army to rape; and to kill their farm animals and burn their homes! Why would God direct Moses to do this? Was this part of "delivering the Hebrews"?! You say that God used many foolish people in the Bible. We would suggest that many foolish people still are being misled by God. How about the people that start war today in God's name?! How about the murderers of Planned Parenthood workers?! How about the Clayton Waagners of the world? How about American terrorists who send fake anthrax letters through the mail to Planned Parenthood offices across the nation?! Was God using Hitler because he was a fool!? Did God tell him to wipe out the Jews and many Muslims because it was God's will?! We don't understand this reasoning of using fools to carry out God's will. By this logic, why not release all the insane, violent, murderers from our prisons so God can use them for 'His' will???"Jonah and The Whale" - Well, if God is capable of simply speaking things into existence, and he created both man and other creatures, I think he is capable of keeping a man alive in a whale for a few days.Response from E.A.: Is this circular logic? Atheists and agnostics already have a hard time believing that "God is capable of simply speaking things into existence". We do not believe that "he created both man and other creatures". So, why do you think we would accept this argument for Jonah living under water or in the digestive acids of a whale?!""Earth-Centric Universe" - I don't see any solid evidence in your site that points to this. [Response from E.A.: Please refer to "Religion, Science and the Truth".]"Dinosaurs living with humans" - There is evidence of this. In Glen Rose, Texas (near where I live actually) by the Paluxy river, there is [sic] human foot prints very near authentic dinosaur tracks (criss-crossing each other). Scientists performed tests on the rocky area where they were found, and both the foot prints (eleven inch prints) and the tracks are authentic. (the rock shows pressure structures called "lamintations" [sic] authenticating both sets).
Response from E.A.: Please forgive us if we don't believe you. Humans and dinosaurs lived many millions of years apart. There is plenty of scientific evidence of this and if you refuse to read or believe this, that is up to you. We could tell you that the Sun 'rises' in the East and sets in the West; and follows a uniform pattern in reaching its destination. However, you would have us believe (as does the Bible) that God made the Sun and Moon stand still so humans could commit more killing. In these matters of science, we have given up on attempting to persuade."Unfufilled [sic] Prophecies" - There simply are none. Period. There are some that have not yet happened, but will.Response from E.A.: Well, we're waiting... It reminds us of the bumper sticker, "In case of rapture... Can I have your car?" What about Jesus' word that some of us among him will see it happen? There isn't a person living that lived in Jesus' time, right? Do you dispute this fact?! Well, it didn't happen. So much for the prophecies. If Jesus said that some of us who stand among him will see the 'end times', and we didn't... Doesn't that make Jesus a liar? Doesn't it make the prophecies false? Has the brain of religious people failed so catastrophically to not see this? If a prophecy did not come true in the time it was promised... yet people still believe it, are these people still sane?"Geological Record of the Earth" - see above (Evolutionists' dating methods).Response from E.A.: Again, with all the evidence out there, we cannot help you if you are unwilling to see the facts."Males with one less rib than females" - does that mean their descendents [sic] must be like this? NO. It is simply symbolic of man and woman's relationship and each sex's role.Response from E.A.: Is it "symbolic" or is it the Word of God? And, also, there are many children who are in high school and beyond who still question why the male skeletons don't have one less rib. This is a severe deficit in learning. Maybe your kind could work on this instead of worrying about the Pledge of Allegiance or trying to convince us that America was founded on Christian traditions?It is my understanding that the whole basis of Evolution says that the world and all species are evolving to become better. As we adapt to our surroundings, we are supposed to improve. Well, whats [sic] wrong? Did we stop or something? It seems to me that the world is wearing out: ozone, species facing extinction, and worsening environment. Why are we headed in a downward spiral instead of evolving? A degrading earth is biblical and points toward the end times.Response from E.A.: Like we said before, evolution is an ongoing experiment. Each iteration is not necessary better and may not even survive. We're sorry that you didn't grasp this in your 'studies'. Species always face the threat of extinction. This is nothing new. Regarding the environment, we are as saddened by this as you. We believe it is the constant barrage of consumerism on us all that makes us continue to want SUV's, live in houses larger than we need, refuse to recycle, not be concerned of the natural resources required to make a product; etc. However, before you bring up dying species and the environment, we suggest you read some of your Bible. Your God suggests that many has dominion over all living things. Is that a good precedent to make? Isn't he saying we are free to wipe out the planet. We suggest that this is not the proper path to take.Your last significant comment reflected on how there is evidence that "man walked the earth long before the Bible says the earth was created." What evidence? Give me some. There is a little evidence of "cavemen"-rejects from civilazations [sic] during biblical times. In the Old Testament, Job specifically mentions them: "They were driven forth from among men, (they cried after them as after a thief;) To dwell in the cliffs of the valleys, in caves of the earth, and in the rocks." (Job 30:5) But these people were in no way "prehistoric". Certainly there should be some evidence of "prehistoric" men, right? Let's say there have been men walking the earth for one million years. There must be some connection between the apes and men. But the fact is, my dear atheist, there is no missing link. There has been none found. EVER!! Java Man (a fake which consisted of a human leg bone and an apes's [sic] skull cap), Heidelberg Man (a human skeleton), and Lucy (some of her "parts" were found a mile away from the rest and sixty feet futher [sic] underground!) are all fakes. So where are they? There should be thousands upon thousands of examples!! Why have they not been found?? At the time the ape evolved into man, 1 million years ago, as Evolution states, it has been calculated that the population could have easily reached into the billions within 3000 years. Yet not any even one of them has been recovered. WOW and I'll say it backwards, WOW.Response from E.A.: "Cavemen-rejects" during Biblical times is an oxymoron. How long did humans exists on earth according to the Bible? Not as long as man actually existed on Earth! You need to back up in your search some. Again, if you refuse to see the facts regarding 'prehistoric' men, we cannot help you. There are thousands of scientists and textbooks out there, should you be so inclined. It is beyond our understanding why people such as yourself refuse the facts. Fakes?! Who keeps putting all these 'Fakes' here? The Devil? We've heard that fossils are all fakes placed here by the devil. Is that what you are suggesting?Evolution is a theory in crisis. I am not the one ignoring the "facts, plain and simple". That the world simply exploded into existence is not possible!!! There is so much evidence against it, and so much evidence that the world had to have been created through intelligent design. Even at the molecular level, it is easy that Evolution is not possible. We can not simply make things up and call it "science". That is not what science is. Science looks at the facts, something that Evolutionists for whatever reason can not do.Response from E.A.: Are you one to lecture on 'science'? We don't think so. Do you know what the term 'Evidence' means? We don't think so. We've seen the so called evidence for "intelligent design" and it isn't evidence at all. We also listen to other 'followers of the faith' say that intelligent design isn't true. It seems that God and his followers could at least stick to one story. "Evolution is a theory in crisis"? Why don't you read a little about how bacteria are able to adapt to the antibiotics that modern science keeps throwing at them? Are you saying that these bacteria aren't adapting to the antibiotics? Have you listened to what medical doctors are saying about the overuse or incorrect use of these antibiotics? Or, are you one of those that believe medical science is a violation of God's will?Your friend, Jordan"Evolution is a theory in crisis"? As Jack Nicholson said, "Go sell crazy somewhere else. We're all filled up here!"
Response from E.A.: Your friend E.A.
- Ethical Atheist
[Created: 11/03/2002]
[Last Update: 01/14/2003]