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J. P. Lestrade, lestrade@futuresouth.com  [4/3/02, 11:07 am]

Thanks for the reference. It is a great compilation.  One small typo: The second to last word should be "as" not "has" in the Lactantius section.

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Vic Sagerquist, vicman@dontspamme.inreach.com [4/3/02, 9:13 pm]

Great E-book!  I really enjoyed it, and I'll pass it around. 

Here's a link to a page I just found with some very *interesting* world maps.
http://camel2.conncoll.edu/academics/departments/relstudies/290/theory/worldmaps/
Watch out for word wrap...

Vic Sagerquist, AA # 2011

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Raptor514, Raptor514@Never-Spam-Me.hotmail.com [4/4/02, 12:07 am]

I'm a philosophy major at Texas A&M.  Two years ago I took a "History of Science" class and "Inventing the Flat Earth" by Jeffrey Russell was one of the textbooks for the class.  I wrote the professor and sent him a link to your site, which is well-written and solidly researched so you might get an e-mail from a "Dr. Anthony Stranges."  By the way, check out page 76 where J. Russell sneaks in that it's been "proven" that the Inquisition never happened.  It's a doozy.

It pisses me off that this stealth-creationist garbage was taught to me and hundreds of others at a state-funded university--and still is.

Response from Ethical Atheist:  Thanks.  Yes I'll check out the "Inquisition never happened" on p. 76.  Russell was actually the very first person I notified about my web page.  I've received a couple emails from him basically saying "every serious historian believes me" and questions how I could possible think this.  I'm doing some rework of the site to reflect some new things I learned, but his evil secular conspiracy theory by evolutionists is really irritating, isn't it?!

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Franz Nagel , FranzNagel@t-online.de, Tuesday, April 02, 2002 1:45 PM

You've really done some work. That is stuff to research about. Thank you! Franz

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Skeptical Inquirer, SkeptInq@aol.com, Wednesday, April 03, 2002 8:33 AM

{Response to EA letter asking for comments on eBook...}
Thanks for the note regarding the article, and for your interest in and support of our efforts. I am passing this along to the editor for his consideration and response.  However, in a separate e-mail I will send you a copy of our author guidelines.

Thanks again,
Barry Karr
CSICOP

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Ken Schei, www.atheists-for-jesus.com, ken@schei.com, 4/2/2002 7:13 PM

{Response to EA letter asking for comments on eBook...}
Hi,  Thanks for the heads-up!  I'm really swamped right now, but will get to it as soon as I can.  If you haven't heard from me in a couple of weeks, please drop me a reminder (I find that I need more and more of those as time goes by!!).  ;-)

Sincerely,
Ken Schei

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Bobbie Kirkhart, Atheist Alliance, Inc. Copresident, BKirkhart@aol.com, 4/2/2002 5:39 PM

I really wish we could.  At our convention this weekend, I asked if anyone was available for just this kind of work, but alas, I got no takers.  I'm afraid, as an all volunteer organization, we have too much to do, and no time for the fun stuff, which reviewing your work would be. 

Sorry, 
Bobbie Kirkhart 
Atheist Alliance, Inc., Copresident 

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{Name and address withheld on request}, Wednesday, April 03, 2002 9:53 AM

Excellent!  It will be interesting to see what kind of response you get. 

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Robert I. Bradshaw, Wasteland of Wonders, Atheism
rob@robibrad.demon.co.uk, 04/03/2002 12:13 PM

Thank you for your message.  I have added your article to my page so my visitors can make up their own mind as to who is right.

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Jim Scotti, jscotti@pirl.lpl.arizona.edu, Wed Apr  3 16:03:28 2002. 

Enjoyed reading your site.  Just going through your eBook on the Flat Earth.  But as I read this particular response on your feedback page, I immediately thought: "But why couldn't 'God' have written a scientifically testable version of the Bible which would provide real and testable claims."  Why not provide a scientific manual of the world around us that could only have been written by the actual creator of the Universe?  The laymen can read the bible, the scientists can read the scientific version of the bible.  Of course, you and I know why "he" didn't do that.... 

Response from Ethical Atheist:  Good point.  That would have saved us a lot of time trying to figure out "his" grand universe.  "He" could have spoken directly through a scientist to write the book and save all the violence, sex & murder for the other book.  ha. {note: see elaboration of this thought coming later in the soc.history.medieval replies}

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Judith Hayes, www.thehappyheretic.com, jhayes@goldrush.com, 04/03/2002 1:52 PM

Sorry, there aren't enough hours in the day for my own book (a biography) let alone reviewing other work.

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Ben Clausen, bclausen@lasierra.edu, Thursday, April 04, 2002 10:09 AM
Geoscience Research Institute, A site committed to "Integrating Science and Faith".

{response to EA letter implying that their article "RETRO-PROGRESSING" is wrong at http://www.grisda.org/origins/22003.htm}
Thank you. We will put a link to the site you suggested on the "WHAT'S NEW" section of our website.

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Mike Keas, Mike_Keas@mail.okbu.edu, Friday, April 05, 2002 3:23 PM
Professor and Creator of FLAT EARTH LAB at Oklahoma Baptist University

{response to EA letter implying that the teaching of the Flat Earth Myth Oklahoma Baptist University may be wrong at http://www.okbu.edu/academics/natsci/hp/keas/papers/flat_lab.htm}
Thanks for the link to your views.  When I revise this part of my course in another month I shall carefully study your page and respond.  Busy with other stuff now.

Cheers, Mike

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{Name and address withheld on request}, Friday, April 05, 2002 2:17 AM

Great research!  An excellent resource for anyone researching flat earth non-thinking!  However, J. Russell is a well known and 'generally' respected medieval historian.  He's heavily prejudiced by his Christian background.... and makes idiotic conclusions about current history writers... but his scholarship on medieval history appears sound.  Recommend you make this point in your eBook.

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SENECA@argo.rhein-neckar.de, Sunday, April 07, 2002 3:55 AM

Hi!  I could not read your site because its under revision now. But I have some references you will like (perhaps you already know).

Response from Ethical Atheist:  Excellent.  Thank you for your references and I regret having to take it down for revision.  I must admit a little guilt that my atheist position made me overstate some of the evidence against Christianity.  I'm trying to rework that now and will let you know when it's completed.

Its from http://www.liv.ac.uk/Philosophy/flatearth.html of 1998.  Here a few excerpts:

I doubt that the "flat earth" story was invented by Washington Irving. The idea of a flat earth was espoused by _some_ of the leaders of the Christian church in the fourth century, notably Cyril of Jerusalem and Diodorus of Tarsus. 

I did find out some printed sources (there are two manuscripts in florence (italy) nat.lib. which explictly claim that the planet is flat (and that, interestingly enough, people on the other "side" are suffering constant headaches --,given their positions...). I have seen them a long time ago (their date is circa 1290) but I could track them down if you care to. I am not aware of any serious scientific point made out of it. 

On the other hand, the ancient Hebrews, like all of their contemporaries, were flat earthers, and their flat earth cosmology is written between the lines in numerous passages of the Hebrew Bible. This was not lost on many of the Fathers of the Church. Lactantius, Cyril of Jerusalem, and Diodorus of Tarsus have been correctly cited by others as flat earthers. I could name many more, some minor figures, some major (John Chrysostom, for example, and probably Basil of Caesarea). Flat earthism seems to have been uncommon among the Latin Fathers (Tertullian seems to have been one exception). Among the Greek Fathers, the Alexandrians tended to interpret scripture allegorically, and they likewise could accept sphericity without a problem. The Antiochene theologians, however, originated the  grammatical-historical interpretation of the Bible beloved by modern  fundamentalists, and I can't name a single one of them who endorsed sphericity but several who condemned it. The Old Syrian Church seems likewise to have been hostile to sphericity. (Jeffrey Burton Russell's treatment of the Fathers' views on the shape of the earth is no more reliable than Andrew Dickson White's, though he castigates White for inaccuracy.) 

Contra Russell, who portrays Cosmas Indicopleustes as a weird latter-day (c. 548) innovator, I think Cosmas (who wrote in Greek, not Latin) preserved a minor but interesting tradition. He says in his book that he learned his system from the man who later became Bishop Catholic of all of Persia (head of the Nestorian Church). For those interested in Cosmas's views, I was astonished some weeks ago to find a Web page with the English (and Greek) text of the crucial chapter of his *Christian Topography*, complete with scans of all the illustrations! 

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Denise J. {email withheld on request}, Sunday, April 07, 2002 9:53 AM

I was trying to look at it again, but it says "temporarily removed for majorr revision"!  Bummer!  I knew from my own reading that most of the later Medieval thinkers did not think they would sail off the earth... but I wasn't aware of Jeffrey R. trying to say it never happened at all!  Who the hell is this guy!

Response from the Ethical Atheist: There's a section in the eBook on Jeffrey Burton Russell and his background.  Until I can complete the changes to it, you might want to check out his biographical info and flat earth myth paper at: 
   http://id-www.ucsb.edu/fscf/library/RUSSELL/home.html
   http://www.id.ucsb.edu/fscf/library/RUSSELL/FlatEarth.html

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BlackWater, bw@barrk.net [4/3/02, 5:30 am]

But what a waste of TIME ! Everybody KNOWS that the Earth isn't flat ... it's HOLLOW ! 

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Painius, starswirler@aol.com [4/6/02, 4:35 pm]

You mean it ain't turtles all the way down???

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Boris Nogoodnik, no@spam.org  [4/3/02, 11:35 pm]

Isn't the term "religious professor" a bit contradictory?  And I still think of Aussies as Antipodes.  They must have some major headaches walking upside down all the time :)  No wonder Brits send them there.

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Our poor attempt at translation into French (using Google for the translation) undoubtably resulted in something boarding on incomprehensible (see following).  Luckily, on fr.sci.astronomie, we were not met with criticism for our attempt.  In fact, after the following translation from Google, Serge Paccalin sp@mailclub.no.spam.net was kind enough to provide a more accurate translation into French.

Je souhaite que j'aie connu le français, mais moi pas .  D'abord, je le présente en anglais.  Puis, j'avais l'habitude Google pour traduire ceci au Français.

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Avez-vous entendu parler de Jeffrey Burton Russell?  Il est un professeur religieux qui a écrit un livre et plusieurs papiers essayant de dissimuler la terre plate du christianisme pensant dans les âges foncés et médiévaux... Il l'appelle "le mythe plat de la terre".  Il a été très bien reçu par tous les organismes chrétiens et ils se poursuivent pour récrire l'histoire... encore!  Elle m'a irrité tellement que je suis allé travailler l'essai de placer le droit record... encore!  J'ai juste accompli ma recherche sur la pensée plate de la terre.  Elle s'est avérée être un effort monumental.  (je l'ai appelée un "eBook" parce que c'est les pages 21+ longtemps!).  "LA TERRE PLATE - une étude détaillée de la Plat-Terre historique pensant... et de l'effort de le couvrir vers le haut." http://www.ethicalatheist.com/docs/flat_earth_myth.html la vérifient svp hors de... leur disent d'autres au sujet... du lien...  Je crois qu'un des meilleures choses que un athée peut faire doit favoriser l'éducation en sciences.  Nous ne devrions pas laisser ces efforts chrétiens de récrire l'histoire scientifique procédons sans opposition!  Merci! 

Sincèrement,
l'athée moral 
www.ethicalatheist.com 
"pensée, éducation et éthique libres régnera."

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MUCH better translation to French provided by: 
Serge Paccalin, sp@mailclub.no.spam.net [4/6/02, 9:47 am]

Je me suis permis de refaire une traduction « propre » :

Avez-vous entendu parler de Jeffrey Burton Russell ? C'est un professeur de religion qui a écrit un livre et plusieurs articles essayant de dissimuler que le christianisme croyait la Terre plate dans l'ère ténébreuse du Moyen-Âge...

Il l'appelle « le mythe de la Terre plate ». Il a été très bien reçu par tous les organismes chrétiens et ils se sont donné pour but de récrire l'histoire... une fois de plus ! Ça m'a tellement énervé que je me suis mis au travail pour rétablir la vérité... une fois de plus !

Je viens de terminer mes recherches sur la croyance de la terre plate. Elles se sont avérées être un effort monumental. (J'ai appelé le résultat un « eBook » parce qu'il fait plus de 21 pages !).  « LA TERRE PLATE - une étude détaillée de la croyance historique en la Terre plate... et des efforts pour la dissimuler. »

  http://www.ethicalatheist.com/docs/flat_earth_myth.html

S'il vous plait, jetez-y un ½il... parlez-en autour de vous... référencez-le sur vos pages...  Je crois qu'une des meilleures choses qu'un athée puisse faire est de promouvoir l'éducation scientifique.  Nous ne devrions pas laisser ces efforts chrétiens de récrire l'histoire scientifique se poursuivre sans opposition ! Merci !

Sincèrement,
L'Athée Éthique
www.ethicalatheist.com
« La libre-pensée, l'éducation et l'éthique prévaudront. »

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Oncle Dom, caudrond2@NULLwanadoo.fr, 4/3/02, 6:08 pm

Thanks. It's a good study. I know the problem too. I just saw the Web page of JBR

   http://www.id.ucsb.edu/fscf/library/RUSSELL/FlatEarth.html

He said: "No one before the 1830s believed that medieval people thought that the earth was flat."  The idea was established, almost contemporaneously, by a Frenchman and an American, between whom I have not been able to establish a connection, though they were both in Paris at the same time. One was Antoine-Jean Letronne (1787-1848), an academic of strong antireligious prejudices who had studied both geography and patristics and who cleverly drew upon both to misrepresent the church fathers and their medieval successors as believing in a flat earth, in his On the Cosmographical Ideas of the Church Fathers (1834)."

But Letronne is not a stupid antireligious academician, he found an old book of the irish monk Dicuilus, entitled "De mensura orbis terrae", which contains some concise information about various lands. I read in the catholic encyclopedia http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04778c.htm  "An excellent commentary is that by LETRONNE in his Recherches geographiques et critiques sur le livre De mensura orbis terrae compose . . . par Dicuil (Paris, l814)"

No the belief in flat earth is not a myth established by letronne.  In the fifties a sect still teached that earth was flat.

Response from Ethical Atheist:  Thanks for your response and for the reference to the irish monk Dicuilus.  I'll have to research that one.  Regarding JBR, it's almost humorous how he spins these conspiracies...."by a Frenchman and an American, between whom I have not been able to establish a connection, though they were both in Paris at the same time."  ha!  And, he says that the "flat earth myth" is just an "attack on Christianity" by "secular writers" trying to "defend Darwinism".  What a joke. JBR was the first person I wrote to let him know about the Ethical Atheist's Flat Earth page.  - Les meilleurs voeux, Ethical Atheist

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Robert Chafer, rob@silverfrost.com [4/3/02, 10:25 am]

Fascinating, I never even knew about the implcations of a non-flat earth.

Robert Chafer
Silverfrost Limited.   http://www.silverfrost.com
Home to Solar Kingdom, the 3D Solar System Simulator 

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Noah Grabber, rincewind@worldnet.att.net [4/4/02, 11:15 am]

Heathen swine!  {taken as the joke it was...}

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Damon Hill, damon161@attbi.com [4/3/02, 2:35 pm]

As if we need to be told that flat-earther fundies are drooling idiots?  My impression is that atheists, fundamentalists, and Libertarians are cut from the same cloth.  Anal-retentive, neurotic ninnies, the lot of them.
    --Damon, "Insult 'em all and let God sort 'em out."

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Ami A. Silberman, silber@mitre.org [4/4/02, 3:01 pm]

See http://id-www.ucsb.edu/fscf/library/RUSSELL/FlatEarth.html for an opposite view (that flat-earthism was not prevalent) or Stephen Gould's "The Late Birth of the Flat Earth" in Dinosaur in a Haystack, and his new book "Rocks of Ages". He also has a more recent essay on the subject, but I don't know whether it was collected or not.  Most medieval scholars knew the earth was round, and the view that they didn't can be traced back to late 19th century historians of science, some of whom had ideological axes to grind.lot of them.

Response from Ethical Atheist:  You're correct in your assessment that flat earth thinking ended much, much earlier than most people believe (or have been taught).  However, it seems to still be present in the early Medieval ages following the great advances of the ancient Greeks.  I also agree that there were those contemporary historians that *may* have had an ideological ax to grind (e.g. White, Dreyer, Draper, etc.).  Yet Russell's claim that it is all "incessant attacks on Christianity" by "secular writers" to defend evolution appears seriously misguided.  It appears he has a *theist* ax to grind...

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Steven Van Impe, svanimpe@antwerpen.NOSPAM.be [4/5/02 3:35 am] 

(Replying to above EA response}
Ah. That's a different story than what I had previously read in your posts.  Can you specify what you mean by "early Medieval ages"? Can you specify some important authors from that era who clearly indicate a belief in a Flat Earth, besides Lactantius and Cosmas, who are two rather marginal figures?  And I don't mean pictorial evidence - most of our current maps are flat too.  BTW, on your web site you talk about "De Return Natura", probably an error introduced by an automated spell checker. The correct form is of course "De Rerum Naturâ"  Your derision of anyone who holds an opinion that was later falsified shows that you are of supreme intelligence. Have you ever in your life made a wrong statement?

Response from Ethical Atheist:  I once thought I made a wrong statement, but alas I was mistaken.  Yes!  I have made many wrong statements... Please see my LONG post on soc.history.medieval [dated 4/7/02, 1:33 pm].  I have admitted being guilty of some misleading statements and incorrect information in my flat earth eBook... also a frequent misuse of the term "early Medieval ages".  I'm currently working on a major revision so please stay tuned.  I'll post something when I'm done.  And, yes, I think "De Rerum Naturâ" was butchered by my spell checker.  Good catch!  Cheers, -EA

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Matt Bille, mattwriter@aol.com [4/5/02, 11:03 am]

It's true that some early Christian writers had a general tendency to read the Bible in ways that turned God into a cosmic Groucho Marx ("Who are you going to believe, me or your own eyes?")  The historical record should always be corrected whenever new evidence is found.  As to the original writer's claim that modern Christian historians were warping the record for ideological reasons, that's unacceptable behavior IF TRUE.  In the same spirit, though, I hope the original poster also objects to the absurd efforts to downplay the religious views of the founders of the US and the religious role in early American history (examples are the efforts to paint all the founders as wishy-washy Deists, something true only of Jefferson, and textbooks which avoid all mention of religion, in one instance defining a Pilgrim as "a person who travels from place to place.")  We should all make our best efforts to render history as accurately as possible - whatever axe we have to grind.

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Bruce Sterling Woodcock, sirbruce@ix.netcom.com  [4/6/02, 2:22 pm]

(Reply to above Matt Bille post}
Bzzzt.  Sorry, thanks for playing. Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, Ethan Allen, and Thomas Paine were all Deists.

Washington did attend an Epispocal church, but he never took communion, nor did he kneel during any of the ceremonies.  He was also a Freemason, and never made any public statements that identified himself with Christianity.  He was clearly religious, but evidence points that it was more of a philosophical "God as Supreme Architect" than a dogmatic Christian God.  His minister declared after President's death, "Washington was Deist."  If anything, Jefferson was even less of a Deist than Washington, having made statements to the effect that he was a Unitarian and Christian.

Franklin had quit the Presbyterian church and became a member of the First Unitarian Church of London.  It was quite common at the time for Deists to also be Unitarians.  Franklin expressed his belief in the worship of God, but publically stated he had doubts about Jesus' divinity and simply commended his system of morals. So one could clearly not call Franklin a Christian.

Paine wrote _Age of Reason_ and within clearly wrote, "I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of..."  Need any more be said?

Many of the founding fathers were, in fact, Deists, and many of the others very "rational" Christians; i.e. not dogmatic.

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hippo street, hppost@webtv.net [4/4/02, 4:37]

You know in Iran or Saudi Arabia and other non-Western places you could just as easily be executed for preaching your atheism as if you were preaching Christianity, Buddhism, or Hindu.  What's your reality testing on that?  What was there // here before the Big Bang?  Was Einstein stupid for believing there has to be a "supreme being?"  Tell me how science _isn't_ a religion.  Don't forget your scientific method of repeatable proof.  Can an atheist be zealous about his atheism?  Isn't that zeal like a religion of sorts?  Just curious. 

Response from Ethical Atheist:  Glad I don't live in Iran or Saudi Arabia!  Regarding the big bang, I do not presume to know this answer...  Regarding Einstein, He didn't - his God was a feeling of awe towards nature.  Regarding how science is different than religion: It's based on facts.  It is open to change based on new findings. Scientists are not known for killing people who don't believe their findings. Science doesn't depend on blind faith as the answer to everything..... shall I go on?

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Nemo, notmy@email.com [4/4/02, 5:09 am}

(Reply to above hippo street post}
Einstein did not believe in supreme being.  This is a myth that still gets passed around and I'm glad to refute it here.  I quote from his letters:

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

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mz, mz@itfreaks.com.au [4/4/02, 8:55 pm] 

(Reply to above hippo street post}
To my mind, if you have a religion you believe in some god or gods and *don't* question anything that comes with it. You just believe, no if's and but's. If you turn to science, you don't rely merely on your beliefs, but you have an inquiring mind and employ reason, you need to prove or discard theories, etc. and there is no limit or tabu to your questioning, including god's existence.

On January 24, 1936, when Einstein was 57, he wrote a reply to a letter from a youg girl, who had asked him whether scientists pray. This is what he wrote:

"A scientist will hardly be inclined to believe that the course of events can be influenced by prayer - that is by a wish addressed to a supernatural being.... On the other hand, everyone seriously engaged in science reaches the conviction that the Laws of Nature manifest a spirit which is vastly superior to Man, and before which we, with our modest strength, must humbly bow. Hence does the preoccupation with science lead to a religious feeling of a specific kind which, however, differs essentially from the religiosity of more naive people."

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Remaining posts left off because they quickly disolved into an atheist vs. theist debate, not flat-earth...

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NOTE: I received MANY replies regarding the Flat Earth eBook on this medieval history site.  Some were rash and degrading, while others were constructive criticism.  As a result, I'm taking the input and rewriting the eBook considerably.  I must admit to falling victim to some closed-minded thinking of my own and being overly critical of Christianity's role in flat-earth thinking, being misleading and at times plain wrong on some issues.  The eBook has been taken down for rewrite.

The criticisms from soc.history.medieval will be added here at a later date.

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